Joint Pain - Not Typical

Okay, so my question is about joint pain.

For the most part, during flare ups I wake up very stiff, I feel swelling in hands and feet, and my joints hurt. I then get a hiatus, pain is still lingering but not as bad, and then by night I am hurting tremendously. The pain keeps me up, last night as I was rocking my son I was in tears from the pain in my knees. My doctor felt this might be atypical of lupus joint pain, and also because I don't think I have any swelling during the pain (I have never really noticed or looked, I figured I would know if that was the case).

Does this sound atypical or is it all dependent upon the person? What was your experience in the very beginning of being diagnosed with the pain?

not at all atypical- have similar episodes of pain and I have a script for Vicodin for those nights but what helps the most is to split my dose of prednisone - take 1/2 in am and then 1/2 around 4 pm- works like a charm I also have no swelling or redness even though the pain can be severe enough to put me on crutches. If not on steroids then perhaps you can take NSAIDS - same thing I would take a dose in early afternoon and then again at night for sleep.

Yes, right now he put me on Naproxen 500. It helped, but I swear it kept me up all night - or the anxiety did! LOL. I ran today and my right knee hurt worse than the rest and it felt like at times I had a water balloon around it! UGH! I am keeping a symptom journal because I tend to forget things at the docs office…I will make sure I record the cycle! Thanks so much!

Why would you be running with such severe pain in your knees? Have you been evaluated by an orthopedist to look for other causes such as internal derangement in the knees? With my lupus pain it is not precipitated by exercise- however exercise pain was a result of torn meniscus and chondromalacia- neither of which are lupus related. You can have both together. I had to give up strenuous exercise many years ago due to same But naproxen will help in either case

I was running because I love it and it gives me a feeling of not being at the mercy of whatever is going on. However, today I learned I may have to walk during flare-ups. This is all still fairly new to me and without somebody saying this is what is happening to you and you should/n't do this and this, I am learning as I go. My girlfriends and I are training for a 5K and it is my goal to be able to do it. Since my knee pain does somewhat fade during the day I didn't think it would be a big deal, again - oops! I have not been diagnosed with Lupus, only that it is at the top of the diagnostic list right now. I am a year into this and we moved in the middle of it all, so I am essentially starting over again with my new doctor. He is also an orthopedist/rheumatolgoist, so both ways he should be able to help. Thank you so much for the advise! So, far I have learned the most about Lupus from this site! It is such a great tool for people fairly new to it!

One of the hallmarks of degenerative joint disease is 'night pain'- just as you describe- not so bad during the day but will bring you to tears at night. Before continuing to run you might want to get the knees evaluated- as running on them if they are injured can actually cause more damage. Good luck in reaching your goal- have to admire it since I can't even run around the block!! :>)

Since you are in an aggressive training program for a marathon please read on 'runner's knee' No matter what other problems you have this could at least help with your knee pain Your idea of walking during periods of pain is good as well as swimming.

Runners Knee

Runners Knee (also called Patellofemoral Pain Syndrome, Patellofemoral Stress Syndrome or Anterior Knee Pain Syndrome) is one of the most common causes of knee pain in all age groups, including teens and young adults.

It can be chronic or intermittent. It is common in runners, hence the term "runners knee", but also occurs in inactive people.


Runners Knee is a condition characterized by pain behind or around the kneecap. Poor kneecap tracking is believed to be the main cause this condition. The kneecap (patella) slides over a groove on the thighbone (femur) as your knee bends and straightens. If, for example, the front thigh muscles (quadriceps) are weak or imbalanced, the resulting muscle imbalance can pull the kneecap to the left or right of the groove, causing pressure, friction, and irritation to the cartilage on the undersurface of the kneecap when the knee is in motion.

Overuse/overload of the quadriceps - especially running, going up and down stairs - can cause this condition to flare up, as can poor exercise techniques, e.g. a poorly fitting bicycle, improper footwear etc.

Causes of Knee Maltracking

There may be multiple factors involved. Muscle imbalances/weakness or inflexibility in the muscles that support the knee, and mechanical errors can cause poor knee tracking. Muscle imbalances in the quads are especially common. In females, the increased inward slant of the thigh towards the knee is believed to the reason they are at higher risk of developing Runners Knee.

Mechanical errors include misaligned joints in the foot or ankle; a kneecap that is located too high in the joint; flat feet / over pronation. Pronation is the normal inward roll of the foot as the arch collapses after heel contacts ground during walking or running. Over pronation causes excessive internal rotation of the lower leg and knee.

Muscle Weaknesses/Imbalances/Tightness Include:

Weak Quadriceps: Quadriceps (front thigh muscles) strengthening exercises are considered to the most important exercise, in most cases, for correcting poor knee tracking. The quadriceps controls the movement of the kneecap. (They are attached to the kneecap and then to the top of the shine bone by tendons).

Imbalanced Quadriceps: Sometimes the quads (there are four divisions) are imbalanced. The inner quad pulls the kneecap inwards and the outer quad pulls the kneecap outwards. If the inner quad is weak, the stronger outer quad tends to pull the kneecap off center. In this case, exercises to strengthen the muscles of the inner quadriceps are particularly helpful

Weak Hamstrings: Another imbalance can occur when the muscles in the front of the thigh are significantly stronger than the muscles in the back of the thigh (the hamstrings). If your hamstrings are weak, your quads have to work harder. Tight hamstrings cause increased pressure between the patella and femur.

Tight Iliotibial Band: The iliotibial band (a fibrous band of tissue on outer thigh that extends from the hip to below the knee) also affects knee stability. If too tight, this muscle/tendon of the outer thigh can pull the knee to one side. A tight iliotibial band can also cause Iliotibial Band Syndrome (see Knee Injuries).

Weak Hip Abductors: The hip abductors (muscles on the outer thigh involved in moving leg to side) also help support the knee. Strengthening these muscles may also improve runners knee.

Runners Knee Symptoms

Pain, typically diffuse pain, in front, around or beneath the kneecap. More pain and/or feeling of joint instability after climbing stairs, jumping rope, running, or after a period of sitting.

There is extra pressure between the kneecap and thighbone when the knee is bent at a right angle as when sitting. The kneecap is pressed towards the femur. If there is already irritation of the cartilage on the underside of the kneecap, discomfort or pain results. Even sleeping in a curled up position can cause pain when the condition has flared up. Contracting the quadriceps, as when going up or down stairs, also causes increased compression of the knee joint.

Sometimes after activities that have activated the quadriceps, it feels the knee is being pulled to one side. Sometimes a clicking, cracking or crunching sound is heard when the knee is bent or straightened. This is the kneecap slipping back into the groove.

An X-ray or MRI of the knee can show if there is damage to the cartilage or if the patella is displaced or tilted. A tilted patella may be correctable with exercise if the tilt is caused by a muscle imbalance.


Runners Knee Treatment

Rest: (not total rest) Temporarily avoid activities that cause extra stress on the knees such as squatting/kneeling or high impact activities like running until the pain subsides. Swimming or low-impact activities such as working out on an elliptical trainer are fine. Avoid squatting/kneeling as a bent knee causes extra pressure between the patella and femur. Avoid leg presses where you support your weight with a bent knee. Straight leg lifts are safer. As you get stronger, partial squats are ok

Icing: Applying Ice to the knee, especially after exercise may reduce pain and swelling. Don't ice for over 20 minutes at a time to prevent frostbite. Elevating the knee above the level of the heart while icing helps in reducing the inflammation.

NSAIDs: non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs such as Aspirin or Advil, as recommended by your doctor.

Exercise: Exercises, particularly exercises to strengthen and stretch the quadriceps (front thigh muscles) and hamstrings (muscles of the back of thigh). The exercises emphasized in the majority of cases are those that strengthen the quadriceps particularly the inner division of the quadriceps. This usually is very effective. Spending a few minutes, a couple of times a day on these muscles and gradually working up to 20 minutes per day are sometimes all that is needed. Be patient. It can take several weeks to notice an improvement. See Knee Exercises.

Knee Taping: Taping is used to realign the kneecap and hold the kneecap in place. Although knee taping has not been scientifically proven to help stabilize the knee joint, it has been shown to significantly reduce pain. The relief is usually immediate. There are different techniques that a physical therapist (physiotherapist) can show you. The tape can be irritating the skin.

Knee Brace: a Patellar Stabilizing Brace helps keep the kneecap in the middle of the patellofemoral groove. This may be helpful when the muscles than support the knee are still weak. A knee brace can take some stress off the knee and help relieve pain. Wearing a brace does not replace the strengthening exercises that correct the root of the problem. Braces help some people more than others. (Wearing them during sports has not been shown to reduce knee injuries) They are expensive, and some people find them hot and bulky. Patellar stabilizing braces must be fitted properly to be effective. Not all knee braces are created equally. Ask a doctor or physical therapist whether or not knee braces are appropriate for your situation.

Proper Foot Wear: e.g. Shoes with an arch support to control over pronation, shoes with adequate cushioning in sole to help absorb shock. Orthotics may be required for those with severe over pronation. See Knee Pain, Overpronation, and Footwear page. High heels throw your body forward and increase the pressure underneath your kneecap. Limit the time spent wearing high heels.

Surgery: Surgery for Runners Knee should be a last resort, after an exercise program to correct muscle imbalances has been given a fair trial. It may be necessary if there are significant structural abnormalities.

Arthroscopy and Lateral Retinacular Release: If the knee-tracking problem is caused by excessive lateral pull (kneecap pulls toward outer side of knee), cutting the tight lateral ligaments to reduce the amount of pull can rectify the problem.

Patellofemoral Pain Syndrome / Runners Knee may lead to Chondromalacia Patellae.

Runners Knee is usually easy to treat. Doing the appropriate exercises and avoiding exercises and activities known to cause undue stress to the knees are usually enough.

I am in the beginning stages of being diagnosed and this sounds just like me.

Poobie - you have been amazing! Thank you for all of this information. I will talk to my doctor about runners knee and stay on top of it - I don't want to add to my pain! My gym actually has a pool with lots of water aerobics, between walking and water classes I might be able to stay active even during flare ups for now! Thank you again.


poobie said:

Since you are in an aggressive training program for a marathon please read on 'runner's knee' No matter what other problems you have this could at least help with your knee pain Your idea of walking during periods of pain is good as well as swimming.

Runners Knee

Runners Knee (also called Patellofemoral Pain Syndrome, Patellofemoral Stress Syndrome or Anterior Knee Pain Syndrome) is one of the most common causes of knee pain in all age groups, including teens and young adults.

It can be chronic or intermittent. It is common in runners, hence the term "runners knee", but also occurs in inactive people.


Runners Knee is a condition characterized by pain behind or around the kneecap. Poor kneecap tracking is believed to be the main cause this condition. The kneecap (patella) slides over a groove on the thighbone (femur) as your knee bends and straightens. If, for example, the front thigh muscles (quadriceps) are weak or imbalanced, the resulting muscle imbalance can pull the kneecap to the left or right of the groove, causing pressure, friction, and irritation to the cartilage on the undersurface of the kneecap when the knee is in motion.

Overuse/overload of the quadriceps - especially running, going up and down stairs - can cause this condition to flare up, as can poor exercise techniques, e.g. a poorly fitting bicycle, improper footwear etc.

Causes of Knee Maltracking

There may be multiple factors involved. Muscle imbalances/weakness or inflexibility in the muscles that support the knee, and mechanical errors can cause poor knee tracking. Muscle imbalances in the quads are especially common. In females, the increased inward slant of the thigh towards the knee is believed to the reason they are at higher risk of developing Runners Knee.

Mechanical errors include misaligned joints in the foot or ankle; a kneecap that is located too high in the joint; flat feet / over pronation. Pronation is the normal inward roll of the foot as the arch collapses after heel contacts ground during walking or running. Over pronation causes excessive internal rotation of the lower leg and knee.

Muscle Weaknesses/Imbalances/Tightness Include:

Weak Quadriceps: Quadriceps (front thigh muscles) strengthening exercises are considered to the most important exercise, in most cases, for correcting poor knee tracking. The quadriceps controls the movement of the kneecap. (They are attached to the kneecap and then to the top of the shine bone by tendons).

Imbalanced Quadriceps: Sometimes the quads (there are four divisions) are imbalanced. The inner quad pulls the kneecap inwards and the outer quad pulls the kneecap outwards. If the inner quad is weak, the stronger outer quad tends to pull the kneecap off center. In this case, exercises to strengthen the muscles of the inner quadriceps are particularly helpful

Weak Hamstrings: Another imbalance can occur when the muscles in the front of the thigh are significantly stronger than the muscles in the back of the thigh (the hamstrings). If your hamstrings are weak, your quads have to work harder. Tight hamstrings cause increased pressure between the patella and femur.

Tight Iliotibial Band: The iliotibial band (a fibrous band of tissue on outer thigh that extends from the hip to below the knee) also affects knee stability. If too tight, this muscle/tendon of the outer thigh can pull the knee to one side. A tight iliotibial band can also cause Iliotibial Band Syndrome (see Knee Injuries).

Weak Hip Abductors: The hip abductors (muscles on the outer thigh involved in moving leg to side) also help support the knee. Strengthening these muscles may also improve runners knee.

Runners Knee Symptoms

Pain, typically diffuse pain, in front, around or beneath the kneecap. More pain and/or feeling of joint instability after climbing stairs, jumping rope, running, or after a period of sitting.

There is extra pressure between the kneecap and thighbone when the knee is bent at a right angle as when sitting. The kneecap is pressed towards the femur. If there is already irritation of the cartilage on the underside of the kneecap, discomfort or pain results. Even sleeping in a curled up position can cause pain when the condition has flared up. Contracting the quadriceps, as when going up or down stairs, also causes increased compression of the knee joint.

Sometimes after activities that have activated the quadriceps, it feels the knee is being pulled to one side. Sometimes a clicking, cracking or crunching sound is heard when the knee is bent or straightened. This is the kneecap slipping back into the groove.

An X-ray or MRI of the knee can show if there is damage to the cartilage or if the patella is displaced or tilted. A tilted patella may be correctable with exercise if the tilt is caused by a muscle imbalance.


Runners Knee Treatment

Rest: (not total rest) Temporarily avoid activities that cause extra stress on the knees such as squatting/kneeling or high impact activities like running until the pain subsides. Swimming or low-impact activities such as working out on an elliptical trainer are fine. Avoid squatting/kneeling as a bent knee causes extra pressure between the patella and femur. Avoid leg presses where you support your weight with a bent knee. Straight leg lifts are safer. As you get stronger, partial squats are ok

Icing: Applying Ice to the knee, especially after exercise may reduce pain and swelling. Don't ice for over 20 minutes at a time to prevent frostbite. Elevating the knee above the level of the heart while icing helps in reducing the inflammation.

NSAIDs: non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs such as Aspirin or Advil, as recommended by your doctor.

Exercise: Exercises, particularly exercises to strengthen and stretch the quadriceps (front thigh muscles) and hamstrings (muscles of the back of thigh). The exercises emphasized in the majority of cases are those that strengthen the quadriceps particularly the inner division of the quadriceps. This usually is very effective. Spending a few minutes, a couple of times a day on these muscles and gradually working up to 20 minutes per day are sometimes all that is needed. Be patient. It can take several weeks to notice an improvement. See Knee Exercises.

Knee Taping: Taping is used to realign the kneecap and hold the kneecap in place. Although knee taping has not been scientifically proven to help stabilize the knee joint, it has been shown to significantly reduce pain. The relief is usually immediate. There are different techniques that a physical therapist (physiotherapist) can show you. The tape can be irritating the skin.

Knee Brace: a Patellar Stabilizing Brace helps keep the kneecap in the middle of the patellofemoral groove. This may be helpful when the muscles than support the knee are still weak. A knee brace can take some stress off the knee and help relieve pain. Wearing a brace does not replace the strengthening exercises that correct the root of the problem. Braces help some people more than others. (Wearing them during sports has not been shown to reduce knee injuries) They are expensive, and some people find them hot and bulky. Patellar stabilizing braces must be fitted properly to be effective. Not all knee braces are created equally. Ask a doctor or physical therapist whether or not knee braces are appropriate for your situation.

Proper Foot Wear: e.g. Shoes with an arch support to control over pronation, shoes with adequate cushioning in sole to help absorb shock. Orthotics may be required for those with severe over pronation. See Knee Pain, Overpronation, and Footwear page. High heels throw your body forward and increase the pressure underneath your kneecap. Limit the time spent wearing high heels.

Surgery: Surgery for Runners Knee should be a last resort, after an exercise program to correct muscle imbalances has been given a fair trial. It may be necessary if there are significant structural abnormalities.

Arthroscopy and Lateral Retinacular Release: If the knee-tracking problem is caused by excessive lateral pull (kneecap pulls toward outer side of knee), cutting the tight lateral ligaments to reduce the amount of pull can rectify the problem.

Patellofemoral Pain Syndrome / Runners Knee may lead to Chondromalacia Patellae.

Runners Knee is usually easy to treat. Doing the appropriate exercises and avoiding exercises and activities known to cause undue stress to the knees are usually enough.

I'm glad you joined,MchelleM87, I have learned so much from being on here. The people on this site are so knowledgeable and eager to help. No one in my family has had an autoimmune disease and don't really understand what is happening, this is such a great resources for people just saying "Yes, I am dealing with that too"!

MchelleM87 said:

I am in the beginning stages of being diagnosed and this sounds just like me.

Also, just one other suggestion, if you aren’t doing it already. If you are running - or even walking for exercise outdoors, be sure to cover up, use heavy duty sunscreen, etc. I started walking regularly one year in about March - as the walks grew longer, and the sun got brighter, I got sicker and sicker. It was one of the factors that caused my first major lupus flare, the photosensitivity.

And while it does sound like you probably do have that runners knee problem, I have lupus joint pain, as well as osteoarthritis damage in my knees, spine, & shoulders, and the timing of the pain for me is exactly as you describe yours. If I didn’t have medication for the breakthrough pain at night, I probably would never get more than a couple of hours sleep a night! Good luck figuring out what’s going on - hopefully there’s something fixable there!

Thank you so much, helliongoddess (Love the name!)! My rheumatologist called me last Friday and officially diagnosed me with Lupus and started me on Plaquenil the next day. I have been using sunscreen and will be buying a baseball cap for running. The sun is going to be the hardest for me to get used to, until the Lupus I could spend the day out in the sun and only end up tan. Now, I will have to be extra careful! But, I am up to the challenge it keeps me from flaring up later! ;)

Thanks for the support!

helliongoddess said:

Also, just one other suggestion, if you aren't doing it already. If you are running - or even walking for exercise outdoors, be sure to cover up, use heavy duty sunscreen, etc. I started walking regularly one year in about March - as the walks grew longer, and the sun got brighter, I got sicker and sicker. It was one of the factors that caused my first major lupus flare, the photosensitivity.

And while it does sound like you probably do have that runners knee problem, I have lupus joint pain, as well as osteoarthritis damage in my knees, spine, & shoulders, and the timing of the pain for me is exactly as you describe yours. If I didn't have medication for the breakthrough pain at night, I probably would never get more than a couple of hours sleep a night! Good luck figuring out what's going on - hopefully there's something fixable there!

Thank you, Ann! I told my doctor about my knees he said keep exercising, but to also pay attention to my body and he will look at my knees at my next appointment. So, I will be listening very closely to my pain and going back and forth from running, water and low-impact machines. I have a personal trainer at my gym who also knows what is going on and will be giving me two work-outs - one for flare-ups and one for not! :) Thank you so much for your support!

Ann A. said:

I am glad that your gym has a pool. If you run for the brain chemicals, don't forget that you can also get them in the pool. My standard program was a water exercise class followed by a .5 hour of laps. This produced a lot of "I feel good" brain chemicals. And it was helpful to have instructors with the latest in exercise science who made sure that I worked on changing my older steady state routine into an interval routine.

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